Lived Experience Forum

[Daisydreamer]

Hi @Historylover and everyone who has offered their experiences and thoughts in this discussion, 

Apologies it has taken us some time to reply, I wanted to make sure that I have a really thoroughly read through all the posts in this discussion to hear and understand what you are saying. I want to start by acknowledging what you have been through is painful, and that the points you are making about your experience of the mental health system are really valid @Historylover - I am truly and genuinely sorry to read through and hear what you have experienced. 

You are right, there are lots of big questions here that mental health hasn't yet addressed, and having robust conversations about this are really important. Here on the forums, we all bring different experiences, ideas and perspectives from our personal journeys, and they will look different for every person. It's important we have spaces to share learnings, frustrations and ideas, and our community guidelines are here to ensure that we can do that safely and respectfully in this public online space. 

You have mentioned a few blocked posts, and I want to acknowledge the big feelings that can come up when this happens. It's never anyone's intention to breach a guideline and is moreso a challenge of online communication in public spaces- it can be tricky to navigate. I am going to reach out to you via email to see where we can work together to get your posts back online in line with the guidelines so you can still have your thoughts heard. 

Just a reminder for everyone posting in this space, robust conversations about experiences are important to be had and we can hold space for differences of opinion here- that's how we grow and learn. It is equally important that we do this in a way that acknowledges and respects difference of ideas and experiences, recognising that we each have something important and valid to add in the peer support space  

Hoping we can support you @Historylover and continue to talk about what could be different from that big picture perspective

[BPDSurvivor]

Hi @Historylover ,

Sorry, I'm sort of out of the loop because it seems like a lot has happened in between my last post and now.

Im simply sharing my experience with the MH system, as you are also doing.

From what I remember, you were saying 'therapists' do it purely for money. What I was saying was that my therapists did it because they genuinely cared. They too need to earn a living. Would it be unfair to stereotype ALL therapists? 

With life, including mental health, there are 'dip' days. This doesn't mean I'm not in recovery from the treatments I have received. I now live a highly functional life (I wasn't before treatment). My treatment has been sensational. I just want to share this so that people know it's not all doom and gloom out there.

Thank you for reading. 

[AussieRecharger]

This thread has moved a bit faster than I expected @Historylover.  I hope that while your views have been filtered, you can appreciate that the discussion has survived and you have allowed others an outlet to talk about your points.  

And yes, if we can have psychics who can hear thoughts from those who have passed in a good way, why is it not possible that there are those who passed who work to bring down those who they may be able to communicate to.  I used to love watching a show called the dead files and I found that more than interesting watching.  We used to believe the earth is flat, that the earth was the centre of the universe and that witches needed to be burned at the stake.  At the time, those stigmas and persecutions survived but over time, more people came to research and challenge the status quo. 

We must be open to a person's experience, I know personally that there is a period between going to sleep where I am not asleep but not awake where weird things happen in my mind that I cannot explain. We just need to be open and we need to be aware that perfection is a concept that only exists in one's mind. We can't let this get in the way of the good work that people do, every if the training they have done might have been 20 or 30 years ago.  

[chibam]

Hi again @Historylover .

Sorry to hear about your axed posts. I can appreciate how frustrating that is. It can be difficult to color within the lines in places like this when the truth is something that nobody wants to hear, can't it?

Given the volatility of what's going on in this thread, I'm actually of two minds about whether I should've written this response at all. But TBH, this past week or so, I've been really fired up about the over-santization of mental health dialog. IMHO, it's become so rife that we're now stuck in a culture that's just one massive lie of omission.

---

@Historylover wrote:

How is it that so many are oblivious, indifferent, to the ineffectiveness - nay, destructiveness - of this so-called 'mental health system'?  How much has it all cost financially to get this so-called 'mental health system' in such a state?  How many lives have been lost, how many conditions have deteriorated, how many families have broken down, how much medication has been consumed, how many needless, damaging procedures have been endured - for nothing, how many have lost employability, how many have been repeatedly hospitalized, how many people are employed because of the ever-increasing need for this placebo of 'care'. To say that this system is a disastrous farce is to greatly understate it.  It is horrific in its far-reaching consequences.

---

We've talked so much about this subject matter, maybe I've already mentioned this to you. But you know what really makes me shake my head? When they did the royal inquiry into the Victorian mental health system, they had the entire inquiry designed by a certain high-ranking "mental health expert"! (I won't name names, because I tend to get sensored when I do. But it's public record.) This guy, a major player within the mental health system, designed the very inquiry that was set up to investigate the system!

Seriously?

I mean they didn't ask the senior catholic cleric to design the royal inquiry into the church's handling of sexual abuse cases in the church, did they? They didn't ask the CEOs of the big four banks to design the royal inquiry into the heartache, corruption and thievery inflicted by the banking system, did they? They don't ask these kingpins of the shady industries being investigate to dictate to the investigators what evidance is relevant and what evidance is irrelevant, do they? And for obvious reasons!

How can you trust the integrity of an investigation process that has been orchestrated by the very entity being investigated? No sane person would ever appoint OJ to be the lead detective in the investigation into his ex-wife's murder. The investigation's results would be meaningless.

Yet we appoint a leading therapist/"mental health expert" to design an inquiry into the mental health system, and think it's all above board when there is no major conclusions about there being rampant corruption and abuse within that system.

How was there not a massive uproar when that guy was appointed to design an inquiry into his own system? I just can't understand that at all.

Later tonight, SANE is hosting a seminar about the royal inquiry. I'm interested to see what comes out of it.

[Historylover]

No @BPDSurvivor,  I am not saying therapists are doing it mainly for the money. 

I am saying that if there are no checks and balances, no accountability, no consequences regarding the outcomes of treatments for patients - they have free rein to do as they wish.  They have no conscience and each protects the others as it is in their best interest to do so.  It is a fraternity and we are on the outside. That is a fact.  Not many therapists would take on a patient's load and disentangle it - find the core of their problem/s - and cure it, when they get paid just to sit, listen, question, take copious notes, feign kindness, concern, have a chat - and tell you to come back next week, fortnight etc.  How does a patient know what the outcome of their consultations will be?  I didn't and I thought I was clued up!  We assume we are being treated, cured.  And what would we know?  We are the patient, after all.  We can be told anything and blindly trust, blindly believe.  

I am asking - are we typical of the population of therapist's patients?  Because it seems to me that we are.  Are we just there for them to experiment on - in the name of 'treating', lining their pockets, feeding their egos, while they only have to say that they don't know what causes your symptom/s, yours is a particularly difficult case, there is no cure, or that they did their best. 

That they covertly did their worst would be covered by all of these explanations - "I did my best" etc.  Why can one therapist cure one affliction while another doesn't know what causes it?  Why is there such an array of opinion and being treated effectively is just the luck of the draw as to whose practice you were referred?  Each patient is different but not as different as the vast array of opinions within the profession.  Once graduated - they think they know it all.  Their misconceptions go unchecked.  

Why carry the burden of patients' stresses while helping them disentangle the mess their lives are in - and it is very stressful - when they can simply medicate - and still get $400.00/ hour regardless?  No-one checks, the patient doesn't know that there is very likely a different, better way of treatment which is effective, and if they get into difficulty they all have each other's back.  

All I am saying is don't be naive, do your research, check the side-effects of any treatment, medication.  You may not have begun treatment for an affliction - you may have embarked on a career - as a patient - a patient whose "affliction's cause is unknown, is difficult to treat, for which there is no cure"- and in failing you, they will simply say they did their best.  And it will have cost more than a great deal of money.

[Historylover]

@AussieRecharger   It seems that you are conflating my assertion that telepathy is real with any other form of paranormal activity.  I am not.  

I  know telepathy is real because I have experienced it to the extent that it is irrefutable. And with an individual whose field of expertise is the functions and capabilities of the mind.  

My question was - if telepathy is real - and mine is benevolent, and from a close, identifiable, personal contact - why can 'hearing voices' not be from a similar source connected to the individual - but malevolent in nature?  Why?

How can the brain just start producing random, malicious conversations?  Is our brain independent of us?  What is the source?  "We don't know" will not suffice. 

Is it the brain - or the mind - which is the source of 'voices'?  Our mind is a function of our brain - an expression of our personality, of our identity.  It functions as an extension of our experiences, our observations, our conditioning, our education. It is an expression of who we are.  How can it be truly independent?  

If my telepathic connection is with a person with whom I had a long-standing, very personal relationship, why can others' 'voices' not also be - but with the effect that they can start to cause confusion and re-programming of a person's personality?  Few sufferers have the words to express their experiences, or have access to those who are prepared to find the cause and cure - not just medicate.  Many individuals will insist it is telepathy.  They are humoured.  They do know what they are talking about and should be listened to.  

As previously stated - I had considered 'voices' to have been caused by unresolved, deep-seated trauma trying to be brought to consciousness.  In recent times I have seriously questioned this.  I am questioning if psychiatrists are gaslighting patients in the same way others do.  

I do not believe in ghosts, apparitions, communicating with the dead, past lives, or any other paranormal phenomena.  I have not experienced them, so do not have the ability to imagine how they could be.  

I have watched just several episodes of Tyler Henry's "Psychic to the Stars" as I try to determine how much of his asserted psychic ability can be believed.  As he is psychic to the stars and they are all well known to residents of USA, just as ours are to those who have such an interest - how could he not know them and have researched their history?  So how much is fraud, how much is real?  Until he does my reading - I will never know for sure.  I had always wanted to discuss it in depth with my ex-psychiatrist - it is his ability, not mine.  I just gave him a subject to experiment with, it seems.

[Historylover]

@chibam- you have written so much in reply that I will not be able to do justice to it, but will do my best to each.

Firstly, my post to another was pulled and I had to amend it to have it reposted.  I did so for the sake of having it posted.  I then left to recuperate.  I am not fragile but important conversations, debates which need to be had, need to flow, unimpeded.

I will not explain what I consider the triviality of the correction which was done,  which, I consider, had fully respected the respondent and alternative viewpoint, and had responded exactly to the last question of the respondent's post - but it was distressing to be stopped in the middle of a serious discussion, even debate. 

If we do not wish to listen and respond to others' points of view then we are confined to telling others what they want to hear. 

We all have to listen to others, to those with more learned minds - not just more formally learned, to see things from another's viewpoint, to adjust when essential, to respect other's viewpoints - but correct or challenge them, and broaden that viewpoint when the possibility presents. 

I hate the term 'political correctness' as it has become so over used and has just become a throw away line.  However, if we all listened to and respected others' viewpoints, and did as the above, we would have more meaningful discussions in my opinion.   

I used to watch Parliament many years ago and would be more than a little disconcerted that each time the speaker was getting to the essence of his rebuttal, the speaker of the house would call for order in the house and the conversation would halt.  No-one can say this does not take the argument off the boil.  Perhaps it is why parliament is such a ramble these days.  They have learned how to 'play the game' even if it is not how they want to play the game.  Tennis players use the same tactic to alter their opposition's control over a game.  

To your post:  we are in total agreeance with so much.  That we arm these "smiling abusers with the ammunition to control" us - how very true.  It seems to me that we naively do that in all relationships and that is what has done us so much damage. I can see now how others use that information, those confidences, to control us, take advantage of us, get themselves into a position of superiority over us, to gain credence, standing with others who delight in gossip, to prosper from us.  That we 'confide' to therapists expecting some other outcome should be a given.  

More anon.

[AussieRecharger]

@Historylover 

I don't have the answers, but I don't disagree with what you are saying. I simply think the way how the mind works blinds us from being able to accept experiences that we ourselves cannot experience. 

Thanks for replying. 

[Historylover]

@chibam - aligned as we are, I have given a lot of thought to this post - especially over the last few days while I have been cooling off and recomposing my former self and wondered how I could give you a reply which would indicate that I fully understand your post. 

I can see that this is something you have given a great deal of thought to and feel deeply and strongly about - as much as I feel about mine.  We don't talk for the sake of talking, after all.  You are asking why those who have not been suicidal can not explain to the suicidal why they should not have the same viewpoint to living as they do?

Why there are not better services for explaining their viewpoint than those tokenistic utterances such as on RUOK? day, and why not have due regard for all others every day?

I know it goes much deeper than this @chibam - but I will give you my reply as I understand your post:

- because this is such an amazing place - the world, that it has so much beauty to marvel at, that that we are here at all is an absolute miracle, that the gaining of knowledge is so fulfilling, that you have so much to offer, that you are so worthwhile etc.

But perhaps the problem lies in the fact that, if the person didn't commit suicide, what is then the follow-up to align those polarized viewpoints?  And that is the essence to this problem.  We can help ourselves and are more than willing to do so - but when we need constructive, curative help, why is it not forthcoming?  Why are there not more than tokenistic utterances, platitudes?  Why are we not more than just the means to another's ends?  As they are?

Why is it that those in positions to do so, do not automatically respond as we here do - with urgency, sincerity, willingness, skill, accountability, conscience etc., that they do not call upon those skills to do good and not just look after themselves? Why do our lives and happiness not really matter?  And why does society not look deeper into the very nature of the problems besetting so many?  And follow through.

And P.S.  It wasn't a rant, it was a vent. 

[Historylover]

@chibam   Your post defies belief - but it is true.  Words fail me.  I hadn't been across that.  I can only take so much of these going-through-the-motions inquiries and changes being implemented.  

How do we REALLY believe a word any of them say, while even so many of the sufferers think they are being helped?  

Even I swing from thinking my ex-psychiatrist my hero - then the demon from hell.  It used to be wholly the former.  The latter is just too incredible, but it too is true.

And for the most part the public purse paid for it.  Fortunately I have been able to do my bit to giving back.  Not everyone gets that opportunity.